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#1 Can anyone answer me this...... Posted 15/05/2012 at 08:55 |
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I have read multiple threads on this forum with regards to 'Legacy' crew and their pay.
There have been countless comments from pilots and 'new' BA cabin crew making comments such as ' overpaid', 'not market rate', 'airline in crisis', 'lucky to have jobs', 'cannot expect to keep on old terms and conditions' etc etc
So I decided to carry out some research to attempt to get to the bottom of this issue as it is quite clearly one which many people make comment on, yet few produce facts.
I carried out the research to cover the last ten years and the results are below.
The expenditure total is for the salaries and allowances of all employees. Included are gross salary (before deduction of income tax, pension social welfare and voluntary payments), overtime pay, sales commissions, flying pay and subsistence allowances, (such as cost of living allowances, station and overseas allowances) and all crew hourly flight allowances (i.e. those in excess of travel and incidental expenses).
The following are excluded:- Employers National Insurance Contributions, all payroll based employer cost such as life and permanent health insurance, agency staff not on the payroll, and expenses for travelling, moving, training, uniform’s etc.
In 2001 the average wage of a BA Cabin Crew member was £25,000
In 2011 the average wage of a BA Cabin Crew member was £30,400
An average % increase of 21.6% over the period with a cash increase of £5,400
By contrast and to emphasise the 'One Team' ethic lets benchmark these costs against the pilot community.
In 2001 the average wage of a BA Pilot was £78,900
In 2011 the average wage of a BA Pilot was £116,400
An average % increase of 47.5% over the period with a cash increase of £37,500 per annum
The first thing which strikes me is the fact that the Pilot community has seen their wages rise by a massive 47.5% compared to Cabin Crew rise of 21%.
Ok lets move on from that - lets look at some more recent figures covering the recent dispute and the 'airline in crisis' scenario which prompted so many of our colleagues to volunteer to fly as Cabin Crew.
In 2008 the average wage of a BA Cabin Crew member was £29,900 (thats the figure quoted by WW many times during the dispute)
In 2011 the average wage of a BA Cabin Crew member was £30,400
An average % increase of 1.7% over the period with a cash increase of £500.
Again and by contrast and to emphasise the 'One Team' ethic lets benchmark these costs against the pilot community, after all everyone was in it for the airline - not themselves!!!!
In 2008 the average wage of a BA Pilot was £107,600
In 2011 the average wage of a BA Pilot was £116,400
An average % increase of 8.2% over the period with a cash increase of £8,800
More importantly the sum of all average wages paid to the pilot community in 2010 was £333, 361, 800 - that sum was paid to just 3139 pilots
What I then found out shocked me - the sum of all average wages paid to the pilot community in 2011 was £368,638,800 - that sum was paid to just 3167 pilots. That is a staggering annual increase of £35, 277, 000 in just 12 months!!!! Or to put it another way an average rise from £106, 200 to £116,400 - £9,800 per year on average per pilot.
So during the bitter and vitriolic dispute which ran between 2008 and 2011, one group of employees have done quite nicely out of all of this whilst another group have seen a new contract introduced with vastly inferior terms and conditions.
So much for 'One Team'!!!!! |
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#2 Re: Can anyone answer me this...... Posted 15/05/2012 at 09:06 |
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| In reply to post #1... |
If true, mr B_S, then it just shows what a terrible job the dominant CC union has done for its members over the years  |
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| you could argue with me if you got to know all about me in my profile - but not here, people are watching |
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#3 Re: Can anyone answer me this...... Posted 15/05/2012 at 10:16 |
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| Or maybe its just that flight crew are in a stronger bargining position.Pilots go on strike,the whole opperation shuts down,CC go on strike,and in come the VCC's.Just a thought! |
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#4 Re: Can anyone answer me this...... Posted 15/05/2012 at 10:29 |
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| In reply to post #3... |
Perhaps it's because the pilots are on a 24 point pay scale (as you well know) and since the abolition of the CRA they haven't been retiring to be replaced by pay point 1 pilots? Now we know the extent of your research has likely been the CAA figures that were so often quoted during the strike, but you don't seem to have any figures for productivity over that era, or indeed any figures for pilots in another airline.
Let me put it to you simply. There is no link, nor correlation, whatsoever, between what cabin crew get paid and what pilots get paid. Nor should there be. They are completely different jobs. You might as well try to draw parallels between what cabin crew are paid compared to dustmen. If you want to explain the differences try 'researching' the costs of Virgin pilots compared to BA pilots over those ten years factored for productivity and see what the market rate for pilots is. Then compare that to the market rate for cabin crew. You'll find your answers there. |
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RIP BASSA & CC89. A tawdry sell out to end it all.
My posts represent my views and not those of my employer.
The Burke Group is watching you. |
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| Senior Member |
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| Posts: 1,560 |
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#5 Re: Can anyone answer me this...... Posted 15/05/2012 at 10:40 |
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| In reply to post #4... |
So the Pilot average wages are set to rise and rise for many, many years, while the cabin crew wages are set to lower on average year by year, due to the incredibly low wages being offered to new crew, which incidentally come out as lower than most other airlines.
Interestingly looking at the CAA figures, average cabin crew wages are lower than average Ramp staff and average Customer facing staff in the airport and average waterside workers. I found that quite interesting as we were supposed to be so overpaid as a group. |
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| Edited 15/05/2012 @ 10:47 Revision #1 |
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#6 Re: Can anyone answer me this...... Posted 15/05/2012 at 10:54 |
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| In reply to post #4... |
Originally posted by Resident but you don't seem to have any figures for productivity over that era,
Thnaks for reminding me of that Resident - you are quite correct. The productivity of Cabin Crew has increased substantially over the last 4 years by losing a crew member off the aircraft - so thank you fro reminding us of that fact. On some short haul flights that productivity increased by as much as 25% and Longhaul around 10%. |
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#7 Re: Can anyone answer me this...... Posted 15/05/2012 at 13:30 |
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It is sad that the role of cabin crew is not seen as the profession that it once was and this has lead to decreased salaries but to compare it to the role of flight deck crew isn't right, that's like comparing the role and pay of a doctor to that of a nurse. Both are important and in the end have the same objectives but there are vastly different responsibilities and training with each.
The thing people are quick to forget is that BA is a business and as such must remain in a competitive position, like it or not but "legacy" fleets are far less productive, efficient, flexible and cost much more than the majority of any other airline's crew.
Look at the financial state of the airlines with crew pay similar to WW/EF rates like Qantas and American Airlines then compare those to the financial state and crew pay of our closest competitors such as Virgin and Emirates for a more accurate picture Bar_Steward. |
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| ♪"We'll take more care of you...Fly the Flag" ♪ |
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#8 Re: Can anyone answer me this...... Posted 15/05/2012 at 13:34 |
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| In reply to post #1... |
Here we go again B_S 
As you well know, you and I have sparred over this subject on numerous occasions over the past couple of years in the great BASSA vrs BA debate that is now outlawed on this forum. This was partly due to certain individuals crying foul when lies were challenged, and when the truth was substantiated with fact.
Why are you dragging all this up again I wonder?! I really thought you had moved on!
As you WELL know, BA pilots are bound by the seniority system, a system that makes mobility between airlines near impossible, but that's another subject! The seniority system in BA is tied to an annual increment to one's basic salary, known as incremental pay points, exactly the same as almost every major airline. So, a new entrant will join on a relatively low salary, in my case when I joined, a £12,000 pay cut, onto an income lower than some cabin crew.
The basic salary goes up in steps each year for 24 years. Again, as you well know, there has been an increase in retirement age in BA from 55 to 65. A significant majority had reached pay point 24 (i.e. the top salary scale) at 55, and did not leave, but are still here. This means the proportion of pilots on the top pay scale has increased with time, driving up the overall cost to BA.
So, the answer to the question that you already know the answer to, individual pilots pay has not gone up as you imply, but that there are more pilots at the top end of the scale, staying for longer. Additionally pilots did their 'bit' for cost savings by taking a pay freeze, and dropping an annual increment, meaning that each and every year until reaching pay point 24, every pilot's pay is lower than it would have been, in addition to other changes to T&C's. A permanent pay cut in other words.
Pilots have also voted for a further 5% cost savings on SH to facilitate the integration of BMI. In addition all pilots, LH and SH have given up 2 days leave per annum. I don't see pilots whinging that IFCE haven't made further cuts, and nor would you. So to suggest pilots 'have done quite nicely' out of this is disingenuous to say the least.
So, to the CC costs to BA.Well of course, new entrants to BA are now to MF, of which there are now around 1,500, all on substantially lower salaries than 'legacy' crew. Additionally they are significantly more productive than LC in cash terms to BA, hence a much lower rate of growth in the annualised costs. Now, the introduction of MF is nothing whatsoever to do with pilots. Pilots do not negotiate with IFCE over CC T&C's, the CC representatives do, and what they agree to is up to them. Everything is negotiable if you have a meaningful relationship with BA. As I have stated above, pilots have been cooperative and pragmatic in their negotiations with Flt Ops and found palatable solutions to problems as they present themselves.
Now, you know all this, because as I've said, we have debated this at length on several occasions in the past. Why are you deliberately using statistics in a biased way to portray pilots in a bad light? If you think pilots are on such a cushy number, then let me tell you how to join them. Work hard for six years, building up a business, and paying a mortgage on a house. Then sell them both. Then live in a caravan on an airfield for 2 and a half years, and pay £80,000 for training. Of course you will have no income for that time, other than 'flying for food'. Then 10 months earning £10,000 a year, night flying single pilot with freight in the back, until you reach your annual legal flying hours limit, so you have to leave. Then hope for the best the economy and aviation are on the up and you can eventually get a job as an FO earning £24,000. After two years get a command, then pass the BA selection and take a £12,000 pay cut. Well that's how I did it anyhow. Maybe it's not for you 
On many, many occasions over the past few years, certain individuals have put out statements to CC and on forums using similar tactics and lies. I can say hand on heart at least 80% of references to pilots by certain people who's 'admin' skills should be focused on truth and fact, are complete lies or distortions of the truth. What are they trying to achieve I wonder?
Finally... As you know B-S we are getting into dangerous territory with the mods. It would be helpful if we all present facts as we know them to be, not ones own interpretation. This way we can avoid deletion of posts and threads, not to mention boring people to death
Edits for spelling  |
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| Edited 17/05/2012 @ 08:36 Revision #3 |
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#9 Re: Can anyone answer me this...... Posted 15/05/2012 at 14:05 |
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| In reply to post #8... |
Firstly - we are not heading into any dangerous territory as I have posted publicly available information.
As to your points - the same reasoning is as to why Cabin Crew salaries are high, people not leaving and working up through the pay scales.
My main bone of contention is the huge % increase in salary enjoyed by pilots in comparison to any other employee group. In fact BA Cabin Crew are amongst the lowest paid staff within BA yet pilots love to ram it down their throats that they are 'overpaid'.
Why, if BA was a company in crisis is it right for one workgroup, who are already the highest paid in UK aviation, to have had such a huge pay rise over the last ten years?
And with their wage bill rising by £35 million pounds in one year - no wonder you were all so keen on bringing in a lower paid cabin crew workforce. |
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| Edited 15/05/2012 @ 14:06 Revision #1 |
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#10 Re: Can anyone answer me this...... Posted 15/05/2012 at 14:41 |
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| In reply to post #9... |
Originally posted by Bar_StewardFirstly - we are not heading into any dangerous territory as I have posted publicly available information.
As to your points - the same reasoning is as to why Cabin Crew salaries are high, people not leaving and working up through the pay scales.
My main bone of contention is the huge % increase in salary enjoyed by pilots in comparison to any other employee group. In fact BA Cabin Crew are amongst the lowest paid staff within BA yet pilots love to ram it down their throats that they are 'overpaid'.
Why, if BA was a company in crisis is it right for one workgroup, who are already the highest paid in UK aviation, to have had such a huge pay rise over the last ten years?
And with their wage bill rising by £35 million pounds in one year - no wonder you were all so keen on bringing in a lower paid cabin crew workforce.
Maybe you can share with us detail about CC pay points B_S. Can you tell us what they are for each CC contract? How many pay points are there, and how many have joined the top pay point in the past 7 years? Of course, the biggest single factor in lowering the CC costs is MF, which came about not long after the increase in retirement age, thus more than offsetting what is known as 'incremental drift', or the retention of higher paid crew who would historically have retired.
I have just given ample evidence to prove your assertion that pilots are enjoying a "huge % increase in salary" is false. Please read my post again.
For your question "Why, if BA was a company in crisis is it right for one workgroup, who are already the highest paid in UK aviation, to have had such a huge pay rise over the last ten years?" Please read my post again.
Ref the annual increase 2010/11 let me explain incremental drift again in case you didn't understand my post above. Each and every year, due to the increase in retirement age from 55 to 65, more and more pilots are on the top pay point. This drives up the overall annual costs. I can't put it any more simply than that! I have explained how pilots have taken two pay cuts / reductions in T&C's in the past 3 years. Please don't assert that pilots 'had such a huge pay rise over the last ten years' when the truth is we have had corporate pay rises over 8 years in line with every other department in BA, one year pay freeze, a permanent pay CUT, given up 2 days leave, and committed to another 5% savings on SH.
I have yet to meet a pilot who "loves to ram it down their throats that they (CC) are 'overpaid'" nor one who is "so keen on bringing in a lower paid cabin crew workforce." Quite the opposite - take a look at the pilots crewlink forum, and you will find page after page of posts from pilots to their managers lamenting poor pay and conditions for MF!
It is worth noting that the very same CAA statistics you are using indicated that BA CC were the best paid in the UK. That's a statement of fact, and IMHO good luck to you. Another interesting fact is that a few years ago BALPA undertook extensive benchmarking work with BA - that is comparing BA pilot costs to other legacy carriers in Europe. BA pilots were found to be amongst the lowest paid in Europe.
So B-S your apparently deep seated resentment of pilots is based on false assumptions and your perception of pilots is very different to the one I experienced sitting next to them on 476 sectors in the last year.
Of course, there may be a bitter and twisted individual out there somewhere who in no way represents the majority  |
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| Edited 15/05/2012 @ 15:05 Revision #3 |
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